Thursday, October 22, 2009

The Des Plaines Masonic Temple at 85: A History


Miner & Lee - Circa 1940s - Cameo RPPC

This month marks the 85th anniversary of the opening of the Des Plaines Masonic Temple Building. It lies at the very heart of Des Plaines, Lee & Miner Streets, and occupies a very important place in our culture. In addition, it is some of the best architecture. (Above: 1923 Chicago Tribune Rendering, 1930s Postcard, 1940s Postcard - All Author's Collection)

(Des Plaines Historical Society Photo, Late 1960s; Author's Recent Photo)
Despite being fully leased, in better shape than it has been in years, and more actively used than it has been in a long time, the Temple is under threat. The City of Des Plaines had targeted it and the Choo-Choo as potential demolition sites for a new City Hall and Police Station. The budget crunch has put police station plans on hold for now, but the building remains under contract to the City, which may want to clear the site for redevelopment. When I first heard about the threat, I began working on nominating it to the National Register of Historic Places. While the official nomination remains in process with the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency, it has been determined eligible for the register. As a result of a recent change to the Illinois Tax Increment Financing law, TIF funding cannot be used to demolish eligible or listed properties. Thus, because of the economy, the Masonic Temple is likely to remain standing for now, and may become eligible for federal tax credits if it is listed and rehabilitated in the future. It would be great to see the Miner storefronts cleaned up and the big plastic panel sign gone - the 1960 postcard above is probably the best way to handle the signage, with a projecting sign from the corner.

The following history is taken from the National Register nomination that I wrote; I apologize for its length and level of detail.

History
The Des Plaines Masonic Lodge Number 890 was chartered in 1906. Its first home was in the Village Hall, which was always intended as a temporary home; a permanent home was officially sought as early as February 1907, and over the years a number of parcels were bought and sold. The Des Plaines Masonic Temple Building Association was formed to sell shares to fundraise for the new building.

The building was approved February 9, 1924 and announced in the Des Plaines Times on February 15, 1924. Ground was broken February 27, 1924. The building was projected to cost $150,000-$200,000 and was to contain a large and a small Lodge Hall, an auditorium with complete stage equipment, six stores, one shop, four bowling alleys, a billiards parlor, and several offices to support operations. It was designed to house not only the Masonic bodies, but also for the use of other community organizations and social activities, thus enriching downtown Des Plaines both culturally and commercially, through the addition of commercial space and visitors seeking entertainment.  The complete and modern stage equipment was hailed as making possible “excellent performances by home talent which has been so much handicapped heretofore by the wholly inadequate stage facilities”, which were primarily at the nearby 1913 Echo Theater, Village Hall, and saloons. The auditorium was designed with a flat ballroom floor and non-fixed seating, making possible a dual use as a ballroom for two to three hundred couples. Fixed seating was provided on the balcony of the auditorium, for those who wished to sit and watch dancers.

Each lodge hall in the building contained parlors and smoking rooms, while the main lodge hall was designed without any outside openings except for a skylight, with most electric lighting concealed in coves. This skylight was executed in art glass by Gustave Brand, who had recently redecorated Chicago’s Medinah Temple.   The main hall was to be used by the Blue Lodge, Eastern Star, White Shrine, Chapter, and other local Masonic organizations.

In addition to the auditorium and main Lodge Hall, both on the second floor of the building, a third, smaller hall was on the third floor.  A rendering appeared in the Chicago Daily Tribune on February 24, 1924, showing the building with differently configured windows than appear in the completed building.

The announcement of the Masonic Temple was projected to spur further interest in Downtown Des Plaines; the Des Plaines Times called it “the turning point in the rapid growth of the community as such an institution has long been needed.” The auditorium was described as ideal for weekly dances from various community organizations, Commercial association dinners, and crowds for School graduations.  Within a year, the monumental Des Plaines State Bank Building and Des Plaines Theatre were both announced, and Des Plaines adopted the City form of Government after annexing Riverview.

In early March, construction was temporarily halted, as the community chose to move the building back three feet to establish a uniform building line along Miner Street. This was accomplished by vacating three feet of the alley to the rear of the building. The Des Plaines Times stated that “development of the main streets must be carried on correctly, to set an example for the rest of the town, for we will be judged largely by the appearance of these prominent through highways, of which Miner Street, to be known as Northwest highway, will be an example.

The cornerstone was laid April 12, 1924, accompanied by a parade featuring the St. Elmo Commandery fife and drum corps and about a thousand spectators. The cornerstone contained a copper box with the names of local members of Masonic bodies, a list of the installing grand lodge officers, a copy of the Masonic Chronicler, a copy of the Suburban Times, a copy of Masonic Ritual, and a one cent piece.

In April, a new charter was obtained for the Des Plaines Masonic Temple Building Corporation, which would own and erect the building. At this time, construction was projected to be complete by October 15, with the stores set to open in August.  By early July, the building was ready for a roof to be installed.  Plastering was carried out in mid-August. The stores were ultimately opened in mid-October, and detail was given about the building’s thoroughly modern infrastructure, including two large Utica boilers for automatic oil heat and a modern blower ventilation system.  Work was primarily held up by a shortage of plasterers, and many were pushing for the temple to be ready for a Thanksgiving Eve dance, following Eastern Star custom. Full completion was not expected at this time, but it was felt that this was important to show the interest of the community. The temple project also resulted in the widening of Lee Street and removal of excess trees, which was hoped to inspire further improvements on Miner and Ellinwood streets.  Unfortunately the building was not complete enough by Thanksgiving, and the dance was held at the high school gymnasium. Blame was placed on several contractors for “stalling and hindering the progress.”   In early December, a banner was stretched across Lee Street announcing a “surprise night” of entertainment for December 15.   A dancing party was held on December 20 with Hesse’s orchestra to benefit temple association lodge meetings, although some of the building’s hardware with special monograms was not yet installed. The first play in the auditorium would be the comedy “Are You A Mason?”, on January 19, 20, and 22.  The first Blue Lodge meeting was slated for January 3, with the official dedication on January 31 featuring a social afterwards, and a High School senior play for January 29.  Over 400 dancers and spectators attended, and another dance was held on New Year’s Eve. Carpeting and furniture was being installed just before the first Lodge meeting. 

After opening, the acoustics of the hall were judged excellent, and well-insulated from train noise, which had complicated many events in the Village Hall.  The first meetings of the Eastern Star were held on January 12, the R.A.M. on January 15, and the White Shrine some time after. The first meeting of the Arimithea shrine was held on December 14 and the Royal Arch Masons January 22. The Lions club also used the Temple weekly, as did the Builders for Boys and other organizations.  Shortly after opening, the Temple proved its community value, as the merits of adopting a city form of government were debated following the July 20th Lions meeting. The following Saturday, the city form of government was adopted by voters.  

The building’s billiards and bowling alleys never opened, due in part to the ten alleys and eight tables at the Des Plaines Recreation Parlor, opened October 15, 1925.   Instead, this space was used for the Des Plaines Post Office, which had previously been located  in the middle of the block of Miner between Pearson and Lee. Although the space was somewhat obscure for a post office, the extra space and central location was judged suitable for such uses, until a new Post Office was built at Graceland and Webford in 1930. The Temple would go on to host many dances, including talent from Chicago brought in on the train, and many meetings, such as those of the Lake-Cook Farm Supply Company, which also featured WLS entertainment.  The building supported the Army Reserve during World War II.  The building would continue to serve as a community center, with the Sixteen Screen educational film company opening in 1946 , the Lyric School of Music and Dancing opening in 1952-1960  , YMCA classes in 1955 , the Army Reserve Youth Group in 1956 , and the Des Plaines Church of Christ before 1957 . The Des Plaines Theater Guild took it as a permanent home beginning in 1963.  The guild remodeled the auditorium, adding a sloped floor and reconfiguring support rooms into unified spaces to facilitate theater operations.  In 1981, the guild spent $22,000 replacing electrical wiring, seating, stage improvements, and painting.

Upon completion, it was both the largest and tallest building in downtown Des Plaines.

The auditorium has since had fixed seating on a pitched floor installed. The main lodge hall is now set up as a ballroom, without fixed seating. The skylight has been replaced with plain glass.

Architect
The building’s architect, Clarence Hatzfeld, is well-recognized, with several listings on the National Register of Historic Places: Indian Boundary Park, Eugene Field Park, Jefferson Park, Portage Park, and the Villa Historic District.

Hatzfeld was born in 1873. From 1899-1901, he was a partner in the firm of Julius Huber & Company. He worked as a draftsman for the Chicago Board of Education and also designed a number of houses in Chicago’s developing bungalow belt. During this time, he worked under Dwight Perkins.

His first major building, with his firm, Hatzfeld & Knox, was the 1911 Myrtle Masonic Temple on Irving Park road in Chicago. Around this same time he began work on his best-known project, the Villa Historic District, a distinctive bunglow neighborhood featuring many homes by Hatzfeld & Knox. He also designed a number of apartment buildings, commercial buildings, banks, Masonic temples and at least one movie theatre. Starting in 1922, Hatzfeld began his prolific career working for the park districts of Chicago, beginning with the Portage Park fieldhouse. With these fieldhouses, Hatzfeld began to re-imagine the possibilities of public parks by providing structured, mixed-use recreation facilities. Throughout his career, he proved himself fluent in many styles: Prairie, Craftsman, Beaux Arts, Tudor, Spanish Revival, and others. Following the Great Depression, Hatzfeld worked as an employee of the combined Chicago Park District. In 1936 he was named director of the Burnham Park headquarters of the Chicago Park District. In 1941, he became recreation technician for the federal works agency and died in 1943.

Description
The primary street facades divided vertically into three sections. The single story base is mostly devoted to retail purposes and also functions as the piano nobile to the Temple spaces above, acting as both the physical and financial foundation to the fraternal uses. The southern Miner Street façade contains three stores and a corner store fronting both Miner Street and Lee Street. Along the eastern Lee Street Façade are the entrance lobby to the upper stories and apartments at the midpoint, and in the north end, a smaller shop and three storefronts. The base of the first story is a course of limestone, with brick piers seperating the glass and metal storefronts. Above the storefronts is a continuous flush limestone belt course. Above this is a brick spandrel intended for signage. The base is terminated with a projecting limestone moulding. The storefronts themselves received varied treatments according to their size and structural considerations. The westernmost two storefronts, 1452 and 1454 Miner, share a single recessed entryway on either side of a pier. The pier is within the 1452 Miner bay, resulting in a partially obscured doorway and a smaller display window. This storefront is the most dramatically altered portion of the exterior, with a shingled mansard covering the original transom windows, the storefront plate glass windows replaced with inward-tilted ones, and piers and base also covered in shingles. All other piers and bases along Miner have also been painted to match their respective storefronts. The door has also been replaced. The 1454 Miner storefront is largely intact, although its base and copper window frames have been painted, its plate glass window has been replaced with two windows horizontally seperated with a muntin, and a backlit plastic sign is now over the transom windows. The 1456 Miner storefront, with its recessed single entrance to the eastern side of its bay, is in similar condition, with its recessed entrance to the eastern side of its bay, except with painted wooden shakes covering the transom as a backdrop to a molded letters sign. The 1460 Miner corner storefront retains its full-size plate glass, has a recessed entrance at the corner to either side of its pier, has had its door replaced, and has an awning sign covering its transom windows. Along the Lee Street façade, the entrance to the upper stories of the building, at 620 Lee, is demarcated by the only bay to project from the plane of the façade for the building’s full height. This bay is also the only break in the belt course running through the base. The entrance is a double door surrounded by sidelights and a segmental arched transom. The doors and windows have been replaced several times. The doorway surround is quoined limestone and also features an ornamental cast bronze lantern to either side of the entrance. Service doorways flank the entrance; the southern door has been replaced with an all-metal door, and the northern door has been converted into a display window for the shop. The storefront to the south of the entrance, at 614 Lee, is a smaller shop which retains its original door within an entrance at the south end less recessed than the Miner Street storefronts, has had its display window replaced by a divided one, and has an awning over the transom.  The 612 Lee storefront also has its original, less-recessed door to the north side and appears to maintain all original historic fabric. The 610 and 608 Lee storefronts also appear to retain much of their original fabric and share a paired, fully recessed entryway.


The second and third floors are within the middle vertical section of the building’s massing, and contain the most ornamentation. The second and third floors are unified through the use of fluted Doric pilasters which span both floors. A limestone belt course runs along the window sill of the third floor along the principal plane of the façade, interupted by pilasters and other projections, emphasizing the importance of the second floor. Another limestone belt course indicates the actual floor division, but is only utilized within the corner bays and the central Lee Street bay, where it instead defines a window sill within the central stair. These courses lend a hint of Prairie style to the building. A larger belt course architrave runs above the third floor windows along the entirety of the Miner and Lee facades, defining the base of an entablature. Above this is a brick frieze, containing a name panel and ornament displaying Masonic symbols. A limestone cornice runs above this. The entire Miner Street façade is effectively horizontally symmetrical, with the exception of window openings to one end which denote a change in function, and the necessarily irregular storefronts. The upper portion of the front façade is treated as three bays, with the corner bays each occupying one quarter of the total frontage, or one storefront. The central bay is recessed from the principal plane of the façade, which is shared with the storefronts below, by a course of soldier bricks at the base of the bay. It is ornamented with projecting brickwork in a Mediterranean harlequin pattern, a motif shared with the Des Plaines Theatre across Lee Street, built one year after the Temple Building. This pattern is divided into a large central part with an accent panel to either side. Above the sill course, a pattern of three stacked recessed rectangular panels and one large recessed panel is used. In the frieze, a limestone nameplate with rabbeted corners has the words “DESPLAINES MASONIC TEMPLE” engraved. In the corner bays, a soldier course continues up to the outermost anta along the primary plane, but not to the corners. This soldier course pattern occurs throughout the base of the middle section. Applied to this bay is a pair of doric brick antae with limestone bases and capital. The centers of these antae are recessed, suggesting fluting. Between these antae is a pair of slightly narrower fluted limestone pilasters with identical bases and capitals. Above each pilaster, within the frieze, is a circular limestone medallion, blank on the south facade and each with a different Masonic symbol on the east facade. The easternmost Miner Street bay has a single window between the pilasters and antae and a pair of windows between the pilasters. The corresponding space on the western bay has recessed panels to maintain symmetry. Decorative recessed panels are also above these openings. The windows on the east bay indicate the hallway within this volume, and the third floor portion of this bay contains the small lodge hall. The center and west bay contain the two story volume of the lodge hall, and therefore lack windows. The two bays on the southeast corner have had large rectangular backlighted plastic signs installed between the second and third story windows as attraction boards. The original double hung sash for this building had an upper sash vertically divided into two lights over a single light lower sash. All double hung windows have been replaced with single light sash. The Lee Street façade utilizes the same corner bays, except with the addition of smaller windows for the third floor. This façade uses symmetrical ornamentation, although the northern half of the building is actually considerably larger. The center bay is largely the same, except third floor windows extend to the floor belt course due to the interior hallway; the second-floor windows below this are shorter, corresponding to the Men’s Lounge. The center recessed panel in this bay, above the entrance, displays a limestone panel showing the Masonic square and compasses. A sign hangs from this bay over the sidewalk to advertise the theatre. The two bays alternating with the projecting corner and center bays contain windows. On the second floor, there are five tall and narrow double hung windows. The windows at either end of the bay are enframed in limestone Greek Revival tivoli eared window surrounds. The three central windows have no surrounds, but are topped with a semicircular recessed stacked header brick panel topped with a round arch with limestone springers and keystones and brick voussoirs. The second floor windows within these bays open onto the respective foyers of the main lodge hall (South) and the banquet hall (North). The third floor windows are quite short, topped by the architrave and based by the sill course, with projecting limestone sills. The southern bay fronts on the small lodge hall, and the northern bay on the balcony of the banquet hall.

The top vertical section is the parapet of the building, which follows the planes of the middle portion. The parapet is brick, with a solidier course at its base, and is topped with a limestone course, which is taller at the central portion of the projecting bays.

The rear façade fronted on an alley and is faced in common brick with no articulation. The first floor has several short irregular windows which would have originally fronted on a planned bowling alley within the building. The second floor contains three window openings topped with segmental arches, each of which contains a pair of double hung windows
fronting on the banquet hall. A fire escape is at the western end, although its stairs have been removed. The third floor contains a faded painted billboard for a real estate agency. A brick chimney rises from the northwest corner.

The eastern façade faces another building, and as such is designed for utility. The first floor has several small windows for the apartments, a stairway leading to the basement, emergency exit doors, and doors to an auxiliary stairway. The second and third floors contain three more small windows. The stage portion of the lodge hall extends over  the gangway, supported by a pair of iron posts.

The first floor interior contains the retail stores and their associated service spaces, the lobby and staircase to the upper floors, and apartments, in the northwest corner of the building behind the Lee Street storefronts. The apartment space was originally planned as a bowling alley and billiards parlor, which would have used the smaller shop as a professional shop. However, due to the simultaneous building of a larger bowling alley in downtown, this never found an operator, and within a year was converted to a Post Office for about five years. Later, this space was divided into several apartments.

The main building entrance has a terazzo floor and the building’s cast iron staircase. A drop ceiling has been installed. A display case is to the left side and the apartment mail boxes are to the right. The iron newel posts of the staircase have small applied Masonic square and compasses on their faces, some of which are damaged or missing. Behind the main stairway is a light well, which has had its windows partially bricked in and filled with glass block. The second floor landing has the entrance to the main lodge hall at its south end and entrance to the banquet hall at its north end.

The banquet hall entrance is a double door opening onto a hallway on the east-west axis, with a men’s lounge at the east end and a women’s lounge at the west end. The south wall contains offices and support spaces and the north wall contains entrances and exits to the banquet hall. The east entrance, which is directly in front of the main entrance, is the primary entrance. Floors in the banquet hall area are primarily hardwood in public spaces and cement elsewhere. The hall entrance opens onto a foyer which may have initially been part of the volume of the hall itself. A small office has been added on the right side of the doorway. A stairway leading to the balcony, which is directly above the foyer, is at its north end, and the doors to the hall are on the west wall. The hall itself has been outfitted as a theatre. It originally had a flat floor and movable seating, but has since had a sloped floor and fixed seating installed. As a consequence, the doors to the hall lead to short stairways to compensate for the slope. The stage has also been enlarged through the addition of a thrust platform ahead of the proscenium and stage side wall, a lighting booth has been added in the balcony, an additional egress door to the third floor hall from the balcony has been added, and light rails have been installed in several locations. The north wall contains three paired windows which originally lit the space for banquets and dances but are now covered by heavy curtains for theatrical purposes. The east wall, to the rear of the balcony, has five small windows, which have been covered over. The space is decorated with extensive Beaux Arts plaster ornamentation, including frames on the piers, a string of medallions on the architrave, and urns, filigree, and mythical scenes applied to the balcony front. The stage wall has the most extensive ornamentation, including applied decoration on the pilasters of the proscenium and swags on the frieze, as well as ornamental hoods over the plaster vents to either side of the proscenium. The banquet hall also retains its original cast bronze light fixtures, including chandeliers, sconces, and ceiling lights.

People
Clarence Hatzfeld – Architect
Arthur R. Niemz – Contractor
A.L. Webster – President, Chairman of Groundbreaking, President of Des Plaines Masonic Temple Corporation
Henry H. Talcott – Secretary, Finance Committee, Legal Committee, Leader of Project, Made pledge to fellowship at groundbreaking “One man who has done heavy work on this temple proposition, and who is destined to do a whole lot more. The legal services alone which he has rendered, the counsel on the plans and specifications, the work on financing and the countless hours of looking after endless details for the trustees entitle him to all the honor that this community can offer to one who gives so much of his time and substance to such an enterprise.” “Carried the big lead in making the temple possible.” “Has been a tower of strength to every committee and when the pages of history are written of “How Des Plaines Built Its Masonic Temple,” mention and recognition must be made in as large letters as his modesty will permit.” Organized stock issue and bonds for Des Plaines Masonic Temple Corporation
B.L. Franzen, Jr. – Treasurer, Building Committee, Treasurer of Des Plaines Masonic Temple Corporation
Richard H. Lanigan – Trustee, Cornerstone Committee, Furniture Committee, Shoveled at Groundbreaking, Represented trustees at Groundbreaking, Past Master of Lodge 890, Vice President of Des Plaines Masonic Temple Corporation, Handled rental bookings
William Hulke – Trustee, Finance Committee, Board Member of Masonic Temple Corporation
Glenn C. Tolin – Finance Committee
A.E. Clarke – Building Committee
Theo. B. Gray – Building Committee
B.F. Kinder, Jr. – Building Committee
William H. Jiencke – Stock Sales Committee, Head of Blue Stock Selling Team
Jack P. Eaton – Stock Sales Committee, Executive Manager of Stock Sales
Joseph Thornton – Stock Sales Committee, Head of Red Stock Selling Team
William E. Rexses – Rentals Committee
W.L. Plew – Rentals Committee
Ed A. Lockett – Rentals Committee
Jack P. Eaton – Auditing Committee
Fred B. Leyns – Auditing Committee
Ed A. Lueck – Auditing Committee
Ning Eley – Legal Committee, Organized stock issue and bonds for Des Plaines Masonic Temple Corporation
C.A. Wolfram – Legal Committee
Walter H. Tallant – Worshipful Master, Cornerstone Committee, Furniture Committee, represented Blue Lodge at Groundbreaking, Director of Grand Opening
Robert Duthie – Cornerstone Committee, Past Master of Lodge 890
Ed Schlagel – Furniture Committee, Worked to establish Council
A.L. Webster – Publicity Committee
H.T. Bennett – Publicity Committee
Fred A. Fulle – Publicity Committee
Edna Mahn – Party Committee, Represented White Shrine at Groundbreaking, business manager for association
Lola Mae Schagel – Granddaughter and Daughter of Masons, handed spade to Lanigan at groundbreaking
Reverend R.J. Smith – Provided blessing at Groundbreaking
William Wolters – Represented Chapter at Groundbreaking
Louise Reiter – Represented Eastern Star at Groundbreaking
William S. Longley, Sr. – Senior Mason (53 years) present at Groundbreaking
John K. Platner – Grand Marshal for Cornerstone Parade
Mrs. Edward Griebel – Matron of Eastern Star Chapter, chairman of cornerstone luncheon committee
Pansy Talcott – Dramatic Director
Peter Reiter – Director of Grand Opening, Worshipful Master after Opening
August W. Mueller – Director of Grand Opening


Tenants through the years
Original tenants: Mrs. Kraft's Gift Shoppe, Ocober 11, John Kern's Sanitary Market

1452 Miner

Bouquets, Baskets, and Balloons
Titan Comics/Des Plaines Comics
1998-2000 - Diana Petersen Collectibles
1988- Vittorio Fine Jewelry
1969-1988 Slavin Jewelers
1965-1966 Fred Astaire Dance Studios
Aug 23, 1951-1961 - Violet Fashions
Des Plaines Barber & Beauty Parlor

1454 Miner
1996 Jory Ives Chelin Law/The Letter Box Center
1987 - Paddock Construction
1983 - Lyric Music
1976-1980 - Cooper Private Employment
1971-1972 - Des Plaines Building Department
1924-1963 - Public Service/Northern Illinois Gas Company

1456 Miner
Hi-Lite Cleaners
1973-1982 - Books & Briars
1965-1970 - Broasted Chicken Royal
1959 - Best Appliance Service
1955-1958 - Maria Shaefer
Music Shop

1458 Miner
1947 - Singer Repair Service

1460 Miner
1985- Re/Max Northwest
1961-1965 - Courtney & Akerman Optometry
1956-Dooley Real Estate
1951-1956 Choo Choo
Des Plaines/Vesely Drug Store
1924: Temple Sweet Shoppe

614 Lee
Sweet Remembrance
Puppet Parlor
2004 Andy's Food Store
Hodge Podge, A Party Place (never opened?)
Blue Spider Art Studio
Western Union

612 Lee
Twice A'Round Consignment
Health Systems Inc/Seattle Sutton's Healthy Eating

610 Lee
Alcholicos Anonimos
1968-1970 - Temporary Office Service
1965-67 - Business Service Corp

608 Lee
Everybody's T Shirt Co
Pathway Community Church
A-Adams School of Driving
2002-2004 - Association for Research and Enlightenment Heartland Region
1994 - Perdue & Associates
1971 - Kelly Girl

624? Lee -
03-22-1937 - Laura Lee Beauty Salon
11-1936- Ell-see Shop (from 705 Center)
1928-1935 - Bremer's Stationers

622 Lee -
1949 - Dr. Ivan F Lundsted, Optometrist
1947 - Meyer Watch Repair

Take a slideshow tour of the building:


Des Plaines Masonic Temple Building

1 comment:

  1. I took piano lessons for a short time at Lyric Music. The practice rooms were upstairs entered from Lee St., but payment was made at the retail shop on Miner.

    ReplyDelete

Please be civil and constructive!